Wednesday, August 1, 2007

General Revelation 7 - Summing up

"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. - Psalm 19:1-2

So can we come to a conclusion? Let's conclude with the following:


1) General Revelation taken in isolation without a Special Revelation is not sufficient to bring one to a saving faith in Christ.


2) God may use General Revelation in the process of bringing someone to saving faith - however it is not in isolation from the Special Revelation of the Bible.


Where and if RTB/Hugh Ross moves beyond these statements, we would disagree.
Ultimately, God knows exactly what path each sheep will take to come to a saving faith - and where things are not exactly clear as to that path, we should leave it up to Him and His wisdom.


This all comes about as some smoking gun against the progressive creationist position - which is a moot point.


Let's assume for argument the moment that Hugh Ross takes things too far (which I think is safe to conclude) It does not follow that a more extreme view of general revelation would invalidate the other planks of the old-earth progressive creation perspective.


General Revelation is a component that God may or may not use in the path of bringing a sinner to salvation. Let's not afford too much value to the general revelation over the specific - but at the same time, lets not discount its value.

Tuesday, July 31, 2007

General Revelation 6 – Current RTB position




What follows is my own self transcript of a call that I made in to RTB's Creation Update Show on September 25, 2007. This show had Jeff Z, Dave R, and Ken S in studio (no Dr. Ross). For those that want to listen its in the Creation Update Archives here or if you have a real-player streaming program you can stream it directly here. The timestamp is from 1:09:23 to 1:17:04 of the show.


I did not transcribe every "uh" and duplicate words that sometime occur in speech - and neither did I transcribe some of the jokes and unrelated comments. This I hope will give the current RTB understanding of the issue and help us put this to rest.


Coloration -
TODD = blue
JEFF Z = RED
KEN S = GREEN
DAVE R = BLACK

TODD: Hello Gentlemen ... I called in about a month ago ... and we talked about GR, andI've been researching this some more for a blog entry that I'm working on with some other RTB Dallas Chapter folks... (Ken/Jeff/Dave: good good) What we are doing is we are taking the Book VanBebber/Taylor Creation and Time - the plagarism of title book... we are taking it point by point and giving rebuttal. There is actually a part where I actually agreed with this other book -> It seems to me like Dr. Ross or RTB in general may be taking the concept of GR a bit too far in saying that general revelation is sufficient to discover the full gospel of Jesus Christ. So I was wondering... is there a general statement that you could give from the ministry perspective of just how far does GR take you and at what point do you really need the special revelation of the bible or other special revelations in order to receive the gospel.

JEFF: can I make a comment - I know you (Ken) will give a far more technically accurate description than I will, but this is a conversation I've had with a good friend of mine that just completed some seminary training, and we sit around and yak about some bizare things that come up... There is an interesting example I have that kindof lends a little bit of credence to Hughs position that there is a missionary out of my parents church who grew up somewhere in Africa... his testimony is that through the course of his life he grew up with no Christian influences around him, yet at some point in time he was out working in the fields or at night for whatever reason and basically came to a saving knowledge of crhist Now he didnt know the names and everything and then in subsiquent time people have come and given him that information, but it appears that at some level his conversion to christianity did derive solely from his observation of what was going on in nature, and obviously in God's work in drawing that to him, But that eventually the full details were revealed to him So it may be that the general revelation may be what appears to be the first part of that stepbut at the end of the day you'll have G and SR working in concert with one another...

DAVE: Now lets hear the theologian present:KEN: (now the correct view......ha ha)

KEN: Todd, I'm going to encourage you to take a look at chapter 3 of Without a doubt cause I have a discussion of GR the title is How does God reveal himself
I would say that historic Christianity has a clear consensus that GR lays a foundation for SR - I see that in the book of Isaiah - Isaigh communicates to Gods chosen people - you can have confidence in God's saving power becuase look at the power in creation -> BB Warfield said that GR shows again that foundation "God is the creator" and that then allows God then to work from the standpoint of redemption, so G and S revelation work in concert with each other they are compatible with each other.and I would make it very clear that I dont think that GR can get all of the gospel. I have heard people relay things like my collegue Jeff here has communicated but I would argue that some of that is anecdotal and we have to be careful about building a biblical doctrine on anecdotal statements -> I think however those statements are important and should be analyzed But I would say that GR can not reveal the kind of detail about redemption that we find in SR and probably its true (now I don't like to speak for my boss Hugh Ross) but I think its probably true that Hugh leans a little more of the direction of giving GR more of a robust element than I would - so even here at RTB we go back and forth on types of issues, But I must tell you I don't think Hugh would ever say that special rev isn't absolutely necessary and plays a critical role - I think its really a matter of degree its not an either or but a matter of degree, and I'd say that GR lays the foundation then special revelation gives us all of the kinds of detail And I think Hugh would probably readily agree with what I've written in Without a Doubt it might just be differences in degree.


DAVE: would it be fair to say that GR could communicate to you the need of a savior but special is giving you information about that savior? Would you go so far as to say that?

KEN: I certainly think Romans 2 says that we know there are Gods laws written on our heart and we know we violate them, and so I think the kind of information that Jeff has shared is very consistent with that I would say however its the gospel that tells you who saves you and what and how... and that is very critical so I would agree I think you can push general revelation too far, but let me also say you can minimize it (give it too little) you can diminish it and I think some of our young earth friends diminish it.

General Revelation 5 - Colossians 1:23

If taken in isolation from its context, Colossians 1:23 is at first glance a hard verse to understand in light of the general vs. specific revelation discussion. I’ve been thinking over this verse for the past month, asking interpretation from friends, pastors, and national talk show call in shows including The Narrow Mind with Pastor Gene Cook Jr. and Faith & Reason with Rev. Matt Slick. In the end, it’s the context of the verse that gives us the proper interpretation. A friend of mine at work wisely told me,

"You can't take verse 23, stand it alone and hope to ever understand it. You can't take the whole chapter alone and use that to understand it; you have to take the passage in context of the surrounding verses, chapters and whole of scripture to understand it. "

Col 1:23 states:
23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation [or to every creature] under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

What exactly is this gospel? And how has it been proclaimed in all of creation? Is this ultimately describing someone peering at a beautiful nature scene and then coming to faith in Christ? CAT (rightly) claims that Dr. Ross uses this verse to justify that nature proclaims the true gospel when it states:

Another New Testament passage which Dr. Ross uses to support his view that the gospel of Jesus Christ may be found in nature is Colossians 1:23. Dr. Ross writes, “Colossians 1:23 states that salvation ‘has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven.’” (CAT-37)

Given the prior investigation of The Fingerprint of God, we did conclude that Dr. Ross perhaps takes this notion too far. Yet we do need to examine Col 1:23 to see if it really speaks of the sufficiency of natural revelation. Does it say that salvation has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven? Or is it something else?

The actual text is in the context of not falling away from the faith, “not shifting from the hope of the gospel” that the Colossian people had heard. To understand what the Apostle Paul is saying here, we can pull in verse 5-7 of the same chapter to get the immediate context.

3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love that you have for all the saints, 5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing—as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth, 7 just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf 8 and has made known to us your love in the Spirit.

Note that Paul here states that the gospel had come to the Colossians just as it has to the whole world – and that it was/is bearing fruit and growing. This is the immediate context in which we need to understand verse 23. (More on this later)

In order to use Colossians 1:23 as a proof text for nature=gospel natural revelation, you have to use the following logic:

  1. Paul states the gospel has been preached to every creature or to all creation
  2. By the time of the writing of Colossians, not all of the world had heard the gospel yet (including the aborigines in Australia, or the natives in South America)
  3. Therefore Paul must be appealing to nature, because that is the only form of the gospel that could be considered to extend to all of creation.
  4. Finally, you must take verse 23 in isolation from its context to make this conclusion.

Is there anything wrong with this?

First of all there is an inherent qualification to the phrase “every creature” because the gospel is not relevant to the emperor penguins in Antarctica. Only fallen children of Adam and Eve need the gospel.

Christ in the great commission commanded His disciples to go into all the nations or into all the world and preach the gospel and Paul in Col 1:6 says that the gospel came to the Colossians just like it did to the whole world.

The WHOLE world or ALL of the world would not have had a global connotation to the original readers. It is often a mistake to read into the bible our 21st century global perspective. Paul was perhaps using hyperbole – but most likely he meant this as the whole “western” or Roman world.

Colossians 1 further qualifies how they (the Colossians) received the gospel by saying in verse 6 and 7, “since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth, 7 just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant” Here Paul specifically states that it was Epaphras that had brought the gospel to them. They did not glean the gospel from nature, and to suggest that the reference to the gospel in verse 23 means the gospel by nature is to miss the point – and would not be consistent.

Some other points gleaned from the version (from Matt Slick and Gene Cook Jr.) Paul identifies himself as a minister of the gospel in verse 23. But Paul was not a minister of general revelation or nature. Paul brought forth a majority of the New Testament and was used the God to write special revelation. Paul was a minister and preacher of the specific gospel of Christ and did not only appeal to the beauty of nature.

There is a sense in which the gospel of Christ has been available to every generation on Earth from Gen 3:15 until the present. Not every culture has had the benefit of ready-access to this gospel message, but this does not mean it was unavailable.

So what shall we say then in regards to natural revelation? By looking at nature, we can know that there is a God. However, the sinner rejects this inborn knowledge and suppresses the truth (Rom 1:18-23)

This is not to say that God can not or does not use the wonder of nature in his sovereign plan in bringing about faith in Christ. Surely he has done so. Yet nature is not enough to bring a person to saving faith in Jesus Christ. It takes a special revelation to bring this about.

General Revelation 4 – The Fingerprint of God (TFG) Examined

The Fingerprint of God (TFG) was written prior to Creation and Time and was more of a general statement of evidences (from 1990) concerning the age of the earth and the creation date controversy. It gives a considerable more scientific reasoning than does Creation and Time.

Chapter 16 of TFG is entitled: The Gospel According to Creation and it opens with the following summary:

The Bible is the only religious text that teaches a cosmology in full agreement with the latest astrophysical discoveries. The plan of salvation as stated in the Bible can be seen through observation of the universe around us. Thus, all human beings have a chance to discover it. The Bible is the only one of all religious writings which declares a message in full agreement with (and, of course, amplification of) the gospel message seen in creation. [1] The portion in blue is quoted in CAT.

CAT quotes the following 3 items from TFG (CAT-36-38)

As a dissection of this introductory quote, we can clearly see Dr. Ross is contradicting the general accepted view of general revelation. The key is that he ties the plan of salvation to observation of the universe. The authors of this blog believe this is a little bit of a stretch.

“The Bible includes an account of an ancient character, Job (Job 7-19) who without the aid of Scriptures, and in opposition to the religion of his peers, discerned all the elements of “the gospel,” the good news of how man can find eternal life in God.” [2]

We’ll grant Dr. Ross that Job did not have the scriptures, but it is not clear what revelation was afforded to Job. For all we know God personally appeared (a Christophany) to Job. However this is all speculation and where the Bible is silent, we will likewise. Speculation that Job arrived at his faith by only looking at nature is unwarranted. We would hope that future books by Dr. Ross would not utilize this argument.

“The creation, thus, reveals all the necessary steps to develop a right relationship with God. These steps are uniquely corroborated by the Bible” [3]

It is not generally accepted by conservative Christian scholars that ALL necessary steps can be fleshed out by the observation of creation. To look at this a little further, TFG gives a list of the elements of faith that can be discerned from nature (TFG-181,182):

A Creator Must Exist
It is a violation of the laws of logic (law of identity) that something can bring itself into being. Thus a creator must exist.

The Creator must have awesome power and wisdom
Absolutely. The complexity and precision with which the universe down to the smallest creatures operate is mind blowing and can not be truly accounted for by natural means.

The Creator must be loving
Ross continues, “the simplicity, balance, order, elegance, and beauty seen throughout the whole of creation demonstrates that God is loving rather than capricious.” While I as a Christian absolutely agree with this, I am not sure that the atheist or agnostic suppressor of truth would agree. They would probably look at predation, evil, natural evil, and other perceived inequities in nature and conclude otherwise. Thus I would relegate this item to a valid argument for the Christian looking at nature, but not as a general rule.

The Creator must be just and must require justice.
Ross continues, “inward reflection and outward investigation affirm that human beings have a conscience. When conscience is violated, guilt is incurred and shame is felt.” Once again, I believe this is only perceived by the regenerate Christian. The unbeliever will not grant this from creation.

Each of us falls hopelessly short of the Creator’s standard
Here again, (TODDL speaking) my family and I have recently been studying the evangelism outreach of Way of the Master (Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort). Very often when witnessing (on the WOTM show and my personal experience) when you take someone through the law of God – they invariably have transgressed this law and admit that they are liars, adulterers at heart (or worse), murderers at heart, thieves, ect. Yet when asked if they were judged by this standard, would they go to heaven or hell, they usually say heaven.

Because the Creator is loving, wise, and powerful, He must have made a way to rescue us. If we trust our lives totally to the Rescuer, we will be saved.
The problem with this is that the unbeliever does not believe that he needs rescuing.

In all of these assertions from TFG, I believe that Dr. Ross attributes a little more to observation of nature and the spiritual truths that can be gleaned from it than is warranted from the scriptures. However, this does not mean that the premise of dual revelation falters. I simply believe that Dr. Ross places too much faith in unregenerate man gleaning spiritual truths from nature.

However there is one scripture that seems at first look to support Dr. Ross’s assertians. It is Col 1:23 – we will look at this in the next article.

[1] Hugh Ross, The Fingerprint of God p. 179

[2] Ibid. p. 181 – emphasis added
[3] Ibid. p. 182 – emphasis added

General Revelation 3 – Dr. Ross views

We’ve seen in the prior article general revelation is not sufficient to discover the gospel of Christ, but it is sufficient to know there is a God and to be condemned when one suppresses that knowledge in unrighteousness. So the CAT authors believe that they have a smoking gun in the writings of Dr. Ross when they state:

Dr. Ross apparently believes that knowledge gained through the observation of the universe is sufficient to gain salvation and Christian maturity. (CAT-36)

The first thing that popped in my mind when I read this was – OK I finally agree with VanBebber and Taylor on something. Finally. And to be honest I will probably find other points of agreement later in the book too.

However, we need to be a little more careful than that. Is this really what Dr. Ross believes? We do not have ready access to Dr. Ross (other than through Creation Update call in show) so we do not presume to speak for him. However we can analyze his writings just like CAT has done and see if we can ascertain what he believes. [1] And supposing that we end up with a disagreement, perhaps we might discover that Dr. Ross has changed or modified his views since the writing of these early books.

The main question for us to consider is whether the evidence cited in this section of CAT supports the conclusion that Dr. Ross believes general revelation is sufficient for salvation. So let’s see what they give as evidence. All of these are quoted from CAT-36 to CAT-39, and the relevant Dr. Ross book citation is added in the notes. For the time being we will not cover the quotes from The Fingerprint of God (TFG) because we will look at these more closely in the next article.

There are primarily 3 quotes to this topic in Ross’s Creation and Time (and 3 from TFG)

(1) “in addition to the words of the Bible being ‘God-breathed, … useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness’ (II Tim 3:16), so also are the words of God spoken through the work of His hands.” [2]

To this we agree. It is reminiscent of Psalm 19 in declaring

1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge

(2) [Ross] lists 23 verses which he claims as support for his view that nature is “likened to a sixty-seventh book of the Bible.” [3]

The intent of this section of Dr. Ross’s book is to give scriptures that show that nature has a “voice,” and it flows from this thesis that nature is likened to a 67th book of the Bible. However, this does not have direct relevance to the issue of general revelation. Just because you view nature like unto another book of the Bible, it does not follow that you believe that book has every message necessary unto salvation.

So based on Psalm 19, we will grant to Dr. Ross that nature does have a voice, and yet we can grant to the CAT authors that perhaps some of the scriptures cited don’t really deal with nature’s voice. In the end this does not impact the topic at hand so we’ll move to the next.

(3) Another NT passage which Dr. Ross uses to support his view… is Colossians 1:23. Dr. Ross writes, “Colossians 1:23 states that salvation ‘has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven.’” [4]

The full verse says this: This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister (NASB – added emphasis)

It must be admitted that Colossians 1:23 is a hard verse to understand. Very briefly, the problem is that the gospel has been proclaimed in all creation. One interpretation is that it is nature that proclaims this because at the time of the writing of Colosians, it is quite clear that the gospel had not yet penetrated to the furthest extent of the globe. We will deal with this complexity in a separate article.

Summary
Quotes from Ross’s Creation and Time do not give any explicit hint that general revelation is sufficient to salvation. So is CAT putting forth a red herring? Why do the CAT authors include Ross’s other book (The Fingerprint of God) at this point? Let’s take a look at that book and see if we can glean more info on Dr. Ross’s beliefs.

Notes:
[1] No disrespect is meant in this comment – but we must observe that in the grand scheme of eternity, life and the gospel message, it really does not matter what Dr. Ross believes. He is not the embodiment of special revelation and we do not hold him on a pedestal. While we do largely agree with him, if we disagree then so be it.

[2] Hugh Ross, Creation and Time p. 56 – emphasis added. Note the ellipsis was in the original not added by CAT authors.
[3] Ibid. pg. 57 [4] Ibid. p. 56 – emphasis added

General Revelation 2 - General Revelation and Special Revelation

In my study of these terms I have found that the controversy of dual revelation goes further than just the science and faith and the age of the earth issues. It goes further into what’s termed Natural Revelation and is steeped with psychological theories and postulations. In other words – what I found was a controversy that is much larger than what we want to address in this venue.

My first search for information was just general searches for the definitions of general and special revelation. These are the definitions that I found from various sources:

GENERAL REVELATION

reformed-theology.org [1]
God's revelation of His person, glory, and attributes to all men in all ages through nature, conscience, and history, so that they are without excuse for not worshipping Him correctly and leading righteous lives; unlike special revelation, it is not verbal in character or redemptive in content.

reasons.org [2]
God's expression of Himself to man through the realm of nature (apart from special revelation).

Theologywebsite [3]
The two main forms of general revelation are the physical universe and the human conscience (and perhaps a third is providential history) It is called "general" because this revelation is accessible to all at any time or era.

Basictheology [4]
The revelation of God that is available to all man, not expressed in words (non-propositional) or specific actions, but in creation, conscience, and history.

Ken Samples (RTB Staff Philosopher and Theologian) [5]
God’s existence, power, wisdom, majesty, righteousness, and glory are manifested to all people at all times in all places (are generally available) through the created order, which includes nature, history, and human conscience


SPECIAL REVELATION

reformed-theology.org [1]
God's verbal and (usual) redemptive revelation of Himself to specific people at specific times; special revelation is communicated to us today through its inscripturation in the Bible.

reasons.org [2]
Revelation of God through a special source (Moses, Jesus Christ, the Bible). Revelation defined as: God revealing or unveiling Himself. The self disclosure of God.

Ken Samples [5]
God’s more specific and particular self-disclosure comes in and through His great redemptive actions, events, and words … at special times and in special places.

The Westminster confession of faith summarizes relative importance of both of God’s revelations:

Although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men unexcusable;[W1] yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God, and of His will, which is necessary unto salvation.[W2] Therefore it pleased the Lord, at sundry times, and in divers manners, to reveal Himself, and to declare that His will unto His Church;[W3] and afterwards for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the Church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing;[W4] which makes the Holy Scripture to be most necessary;[W5] those former ways of God's revealing His will unto His people being now ceased.[W6]
Ken Samples wrote that, “…knowing God through his dual sources of revelation is roughly analogous to knowing a human artist. While something significant of the artist can be known by viewing his or her work (general revelation), and expansive and more specific knowing comes through interpersonal communication (special revelation) with the artist.” [6]

The light of nature is not sufficient to give the knowledge of God necessary for salvation. For God's power (Rom 1:20)), goodness (Matt 5:45), and righteousness (Rom 2:14-15) have been revealed, but not His salvific grace. That is revealed only through special revelation. Special revelation is necessary to instruct people how to worship God rightly. God in His general revelation reveals Himself, but because of our sinfulness, humans pervert the reception of His general revelation, a revelation so plain it leaves all without excuse. It is as if a lawyer was offered the information necessary to solve a case, yet chose perversely to ignore it. [7]

From these quotes and definitions, I believe that we can see a general consensus in conservative Christian Scholarship and study in the understanding that there are two revelations of God – yet one is general and universal in its details, and the other is special in particular to the words of the Holy Bible. Now we will look into specific Dr. Ross quotes to see what he believes.

Notes:
[1]http://reformed-theology.org/html/dictiona.htm
[2] http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/glossary.shtml
[3] http://www.theologywebsite.com/systheo/bibliology2.shtml
[4] http://www.basictheology.com/definitions/General_Revelation/
[5] Ken Samples, Without a Doubt. 2004 Baker Books. pg. 43

[W1]-[W6] Westminster Scripture Proofs
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/I_fn.html#fn0

[6] Ibid, Ken Samples, pg 44 recounting a personal conversation with Mr. Robert Saucy.

[7] http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5333

General Revelation 1 – Introduction

The next claim that CAT puts forth and then proceeds to tear down is:

CLAIM: Observation of the universe (general revelation) is sufficient to discover the gospel. (CAT-36)

For this argument, they leaned heavily on Dr. Ross’s previous book entitled The Fingerprint of God (1990) This is not surprising because Ross’s Creation and Time really does not major on the intricacies of distinguishing between general and special revelation - though it is in general agreement with the earlier book. This is fair to bring in other materials of relevance, so we do not fault the CAT authors for expanding the extent of their critique.

This is a complex topic and will be covered in several articles

General Revelation 1 – Introduction
This article – an introduction to the issues involved and road map of where we are going.

General Revelation 2 - General Revelation and Special Revelation
What are these revelations and what is the normal orthodox view of these revelations

General Revelation 3 – Dr. Ross views
We will look at several of the quotes that CAT uses to ascertain Dr. Ross’s view

General Revelation 4 – The Fingerprint of God
We will go into even more depth on the specific chapter under discussion in The Fingerprint of God so that we can get a more balanced view of what Dr. Ross wrote in context!

General Revelation 5 - Colossians 1:23
Col 1:23 is a problem verse for me in my understanding of general and special revelation – we will look at various interpretations and try to make some sense of this verse

General Revelation 6 – Current RTB position
A transcript from a Creation Update show giving the present RTB position - note that it is mixed and various staff members may hold differing views.

General Revelation 7 – Sufficient to Save?
We will conclude with a conclusion on the matter.

I will say from the outset that in general, I agree more with the authors of CAT than I do with the quotes given from Dr. Ross in his various books. However, we will see as we progress if there might be a softening of this particular controversy and hopefully you the reader will be encouraged and edified by the topic. Let it be pointed out that we do not put RTB or Dr. Ross on a pedestal of divine truth. If we find something where we disagree, so be it.

This is an active ongoing study – so I pray that God will continue to bless the study of His word and lead us to all Truth.

Wednesday, July 25, 2007

CLAIM: The facts of nature are like a 67th book of the Bible (Part 3 of 3)

CAT makes the charge that since OEC (specifically Dr. Ross) hold to an earth that is older than YEC, the thought of a “true original paradise” is foreign to OEC theologies. This has been addressed in previous blog entries such as Restoration of Paradise by TODDL. One ramification this YEC tenet, Eden was a "perfect paradise", is given Eden was a specific geographical region and did not span the entire earth- even if Eden was “perfect”- that would lead to reason that the rest of the world being less than “perfect” but YEC tend to hold to the idea that all of creation was a "perfect paradise".

OEC do not Believe in a "Very Good" Creation
This charge, the thought of a “true original paradise” is foreign to OEC theologies, is inaccurate. Yes, Dr. Hugh Ross and other OEC (myself included) do not see evidence from scriptures that Eden was “perfect”, but that does not mean that a “perfect” paradise is “foreign to [our] theology”. We would submit that the Bible does indeed speak of a literal, “true original paradise” but history has not yet seen it. The Bible does not describe such a place until Revelation 21-22 as the New Heavens, New Earth, and New Jerusalem. It is also interesting to note that these passages do not use Eden as a basis for describing this New Creation. Nor does the Bible describe it was a restoration or reestablishment of the conditions of the Eden of Genesis. In fact, when the Bible uses the term “paradise” it is used in reference to heaven (Luke 23:43, 2 Cor. 12:4, and Rev. 2:7).

Romans 8:19-21
Many OEC would agree with the YEC tenet that creation as has been affected by man’s sin. Differences emerge when YEC cite Romans 8:19-21, as proof that all animal death came about because of the Fall. As translated in the NASB: “For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.” A closer look at this passeage revealse another interpretation, which makes more sense in terms of the context of the chapter. This passage is found in the midst of Paul's writting of the role the Holy Spirit has in the life of the believer setting believers free from the law to serve God through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. In other words, the overall context Romans 8 suggests that Paul was not talking about the non-rational creation. A fine, detailed treatment of this can be found in referece [1].

Animals to eat plants only
YEC often cite Genesis 1:29-30 to prove their case that there was no carnivorous activity before the fall of man. It should be noted that nowhere in scriptures does it say when God “allowed” or “re-designed” animals to be carnivores (later he permits people to eat meat in Genesis 9:3 but that is different as this commandment is to people, not animals). In fact, there is Psalm 104:21, part of the "Creation Psalm", that attributes God as the source of carnivorous activity and not Adam and Eve: “The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their food from God.” But to look at Genesis 1:29-30 more closely it reads:

“Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so.” [NIV – italics mine]
In the above citation, the black, italics denotes every work in the English, not found the Hebrew. It is interesting to note that the phrase “I give” is not in the original Hebrew.

Also, while the text does say that God created specific plants (those with seed and fruit) and gave it to the animals for food, it does not say that all animals were vegetarians. Without reading into the passage, the only thing we can certainly come away with is plants were given as food. Ultimately, all animals rely upon plants for food - even carnivores- from a food chain perspective, but I would suggest that Genesis 1:29-30 applies only to a specific class of animals.


The YEC case that carnivorous activity came about because of the fall of man is only inference and has no direct biblical foundation. In fact, most OEC would submit that it is in direct contrast to scripture because such a drastic change in animal behavior would have required God to continue the creation process. The Bible is very clear that He stopped creating after the sixth day. If the YEC position is right, then God must have changed some of the animals to become carnivorous thereby creating carnivores or this radical change in behaviour and physiology happened very quickly via a natural process.

Often YEC resort to emotional appeals as “proof” for their interpretations of Scripture. Forgive me as I resort to one by posing the following question, “Why would God judge the innocent animals for the sin of mankind and condemn them to the 'evil' laws of survival of the fittest?” The reality is that God judges only those who commit sin. In the case of Eden, there were three parties:
  1. Satan- the serpent- would crawl on his belly and be bruised on the head by the seed of the woman.
  2. Eve was judged by having more pain in childbirth
  3. Adam was judged by having to work harder for his food.
No other judgments made by God, since all the guilty parties were punished. God does not pass judgment upon the innocent. The young earth idea that God would punish the innocent along with the guilty actually denigrates the character of God.

With the fall came physical death
YEC often attribute all physical and spiritual death to be a result of the fall. OEC would agree that spiritual death came about from the fall and that this death applies only to humans. Both camps mostly agree that physical death of humans could attribute to the fall too. The difference occurs when considering the issue of animal death. This was addressed back in a previous blog entries with the label “(death)animals”.

Pain and Suffering came about because of the Fall
The authors of CAT claim that “clearly the world that we a familiar with is very different from the one which God created and pronounced as “very good. It was a world without sin and suffering, without thorns and thistles…” This statement is an exaggeration and mischaracterization from what (little) Scriptures provides in details.

To say that there was no sin before for the fall, fails to account for one important variable-The Fallen One, Satan. God permitted Satan to prowl and growl in the Garden before the fall of man. Since Satan is the original sin of the universe, I fail to see who we can unequivocally say that there was no sin prior to the temptations of Adam and Eve.

Also, to say that Eden was “without suffering” fails to recognize one subtlety in the consequence of Eve’s part in the fall of man. God promised her an “increase in her pain” when giving labor. That qualifier “increase” speaks volumes that at some level there is pain in the “perfect” creation, with pain come last least some suffering. The underlying question here was address in the blog entry: How Can Suffering Be In God's Good Plan?

Is Special Revelation just as good as General Revelation?
Finally, for last of this section, the bottom line argument of their book, the authors of CAT make this appeal: That Dr. Ross is wrong for claiming two claims or comments:
  1. The record of nature is like the 67th book of the Bible
  2. General revelation is on par with special revelation

As an OEC, I would also disagree with these two notions at face value. First, I would submit that the idea that the record of nature is likened to the 67th book of the Bible is a bit bold. I feel that I understand the message that Dr. Ross is trying to convey- the power to special revelation- but I do not like the sweeping generalization that such a statement leaves behind when taken at face value. At some point in history this was a somewhat true statement in that before Moses there was no written Word of God, only the record of nature to convey His glory. For Job, nature was all there was without direct intervention of the Triune God in some form. But from the time of Moses to today, I would agree that the Dr. Ross might be overstating the power of general revelation.

Secondly, Dr. Ross would do seem to imply that he thinks that general revelation is on par with special revelation. There is some truth to this comment in that they are both “written” by God. They are both sufficient to condemn, They both “point to the author of life”. But they are not on par in that today- only special revelation has the power to save an individual.

FOOTNOTES

[1] http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/romans8.html accessed 8.03.2007

Bio for Jeff

Name: Jeff (that's me next to Captain Kirk)

How Many Years a Christian: Since Age 14

Educational Background: B.S. - Aerospace Engineering; M.S. - Space Sciences

Church Affiliation: Frisco Bible Church

Current Occupation(s): Software Engineer; Adjunct Faculty

Favorite author(s): Actually, I don't really have one! I usually just read what interests me regardless of the author.

Hobbies & Interests: Astronomy - really anything related to space; Apologetics;Computers; Piano;
Christian testimony and background:
My walk with Christ is pretty routine. I grew up in a Christian home that did not have a church home. I grew up attending various churches of family members.
Though a believer, I didn't have a personal relationship with Christ. My personal relationship really began through my Grandfather, who was very close to Christ, and my brother-in-law while he was studying to become a minister. Many discussions of the Bible with these two really set off a spark. During that time, my wife and I looked for a church home but were always disappointed.
Once we began to have children, we really recognized the need for finding a church home. We were lead to Frisco Bible through a co-worker of my wife.
They experienced the tragic death of a child, every one's worst nightmare. Seeing how God worked through the church and through other supernatural means really opened our eyes to the need for a personal relationship with our savior. We saw how to fill the "God-shaped hole" that we had in our lives.
My interest in science and the Bible is born out of my two passions - space and theology. Ironically, until about 10 years ago, I never really saw tension between the two. Not because I was able to reconcile the two, but because I just never really thought much about it! That all changed one afternoon when I was looking for a present for my Grandfather in a Barnes and Noble book store. While browsing, I came across a book by Gerald Schroeder called The Science of God. I was hooked!
Today, I still incorporate a lot of what I've learned in my secular Astronomy classes. I slide in discussions the universe's fine tuning and many of the ID topics. I just love it when students first realize that we are truly blessed!
In closing, I find that even though many of my students say they are Christian, VERY few see contradiction between the Bible and science...

Tuesday, July 24, 2007

CLAIM: The facts of nature are like a 67th book of the Bible (Part 2 of 3)

RE: CLARITY
The claim here is the Bible is easy to understand (for believers) and therefore a simple reading is sufficient. While it maybe true that the “basic” meaning of the gospel message is easy to say (that God came to live among us as a man, died as a substitution for our sins, was buried, and rose three days later as the prophets foretold and now is seated a the right hand of God) there are complexities in Biblical interpretation that are hard. While our English translations make the Bible easy to read, we must ask, "are all its messages and content easy to understand and comprehend?"

For starts, let us consider what the Bible has to say about itself. In 2 Peter 3:15, the apostle who first understood enough to declare confidently that Jesus is the Messiah had this to say about Paul’s contributions to the Bible “… [Paul’s] letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” [1]

Secondly, in a previous blog entry, I provided an example of how an “simple” reading of the Bible will fall short of the deep truths of Jesus’ teaching on our relationship to material things (see Part 1 of this series of entries). Such misunderstandings come about because separated the original writing o Word of God by language, culture, and 2000 years.

Most all evangelical Christians in America look at scriptures with a 21st century, western mindset and not with the first century Jewish mindset of the New Testament environment. Consider this simple example. Often Luke used the Jewish idioms such as going “up to Jerusalem” or “down from Jerusalem”. My Bible study teacher made a simple comment that the place Jesus went to was a lower elevation. While in this case the place in question was lower in elevation that is not what the terms going “up to Jerusalem” or “down from Jerusalem” mean. Luke is writing from a first-century Jewish mindset that says that Jerusalem is the “center of the universe” (Eze. 5:5, Jer. 62:7). One always goes “up to” or “down from” Jerusalem from a proximity or distance standpoint- not elevation. Even if one could teleport themselves from Mount Everest to Jerusalem, one would still be going “up to Jerusalem” despite the higher elevation of Everest. In fact, this mind still exists in the Jews today. So, even Spirit-filled believers today who know biblical Greek and Hebrew can misunderstand the Bible because they lack the right cultural mindset that prevents them from correctly understanding the simplest words of Jesus such as “he went up to Jerusalem”. And keep in mind that even Jews living in Jesus day, language, and culture still had varying interpretations of the Law of Moses as clearly seen in the gospel accounts and Rabbinic writings.

Thirdly, as we read the Bible we clearly see the triune nature of God, but that does not make it easy to understand. The Bible has passages that clearly make a case for predestination and others that make the case for free-will. That does not make it easy to understand. As we read the gospel message we easily see that God loved us enough to give His only Son to die as a sacrifice for our sin, on our behalf. But that does not make it easy to comprehend. Think about it, the Almighty God came to live among us as a man, experience the toils of life as we do, die as a substitution for our sins, be buried, and rise three days later as the prophets foretold and now is seated a the right hand of God- all for you! For me! I fail to fully comprehend the magnitude and gravity of this truth and have doubts about anyone who claims to.

To say that the Bible is easy to comprehend and understand is an over simplification or naïve at best. If the Bible is that easy to read and comprehend, then why do we have all these institutions to equip people called to ministry? Is not the “easy to understand” Word of God good enough? If it is that easy to understand, why do we have the need for structured, organized Bible studies? Why do we resort to commentaries on the Bible? Why is there an entire discipline devoted to the “science” and “process” of rightly divining the Word of God- hermeneutics? If its contents are that easily understood, why does Christendom have differing views on:

  • Triune nature of God
  • Pre-destination vs. free will
  • Whether or not there be a rapture
  • Whether or not Christ will return to establish a literal Kingdom on earth
  • How local Churches should be run and structured (committees, elder run, deacon run)
  • How much believers are obligated to the follow the Law of Moses

And the list does go on...

RE: STABILITY
YEC claims often contrast the scientific enterprise with that of theology pointing out how science is dynamic and the conclusions change with time as more data is attain. I have touched on these in previous blog entries, so I will be brief here.

When we Christians make such comparisons it is NOT an apples to apples comparison. Yes, science sometimes changes with the new data. This is in contrast to theology where the database has not grown with any significance in over 1900 years. Despite the near-zero rate at which new information must be incorporated into existing theories (theologies), theologians continue to disagree on some very basic issues: “Can one loose their salvation?”, “Will there be a rapture of the Church?”, and “Is baptism required for salvation?” to name a few. I would say that this charge by YEC is unfair. And while “God’s word has remained relatively unchanged”, theologies have not: case in point are Council of Nicaea, Reformation, and Liberalism to name a few.

RE: Contamination By Evolutionism.
The authors of CAT state, “Profound shifts have occurred due to the popularity of Darwinism. Evolution has become the foundation of many of the theories pronounced as ‘facts’ by modem science.” (CAT-33). There are many things they could have meant by this section quoted in its entirety. I have no idea how to address this other than they fail to cite a single case or give any examples of whatever it is they are talking about…

RE: Human Perversion
The authors of Cat begin with the argument, “Just as sinful mankind has endlessly attempted to pervert the Church’s interpretation of Scripture, man has also attempted to pervert its interpretation of the message of nature” (CAT-33). Now, let us be fare. Did the Church not accuse a fellow Christian, Galileo, of this same thing and then turn out to be very wrong on the matter. What’s worse is that they never admitted its mistake for over 300 years? [2] Yes, “God intended nature to reveal His existence and power”. The worldview of some scientists have blinded them use God’s general revelation to demonstrate that He does not even exist. The likes of Richard Dawkins come immediately to mind. The authors of CAT admonish “all Christians… to continually examine whether their worldview is truly Bible centered.” But that outcome too can be corrupted too as we have shown above. The Bible is Truth that we are incapable of seeing it in pure clarity as we have to look at it through the lenses of, translations, cultural gaps, and not too mention theology. These are distorted and that is why we have differing Christian views of eternal security, baptism, the triune nature of God etc. This appeal by the authors of CAT has a ring of truth, but is cast in a highly simplified and naive argument that does not examine Christians first before accusing the world.

RE: Nature Has Degenerated
In this section, CAT states (This charge is directed squarely on Dr. Ross and so I am far from qualified to address it well. But I can address this argument as an OEC):

“Nature, and thus God’s revelation in nature, has degenerated from its original perfection. The Bible tells us specifically about two occasions in which earth has been terribly affected; the fall of mankind and the global flood of Noah. It is apparent that Dr. Ross’s understanding of how sin affected the world is not in line with God’s Word. He acknowledges almost no physical effects in nature caused by the Fall. Nor does he have a clear biblical understanding of the effects of the Flood. He and many other Progressive Creationists believe Noah’s Flood had no significant effect on earth’s geology. They believe the Flood was local, limited to the plains of Mesopotamia.”
(CAT-34)


This is where there is a wide gap between YEC and OEC. YEC see Eden as a pristine, perfect world that made ugly with the Fall of Adam and Eve. While the YEC position states this clearly and emphatically- the Bible never does. The Bible describes it as “good” and at best “very good” (Gen 1:31). Some might say that is just semantics. No, the Bible does distinctly describe a perfect creation, but one needs to go to the other end of the Bible to find it- the New Heaven, New Earth, and New Jerusalem (Rev. 21-22). This is an entirely new creation, not a mere restoration of the old (Rev. 21:1). [3]

How did the Fall impact creation? Most OEC would submit that the fall has affected nature in the sense that humanity is no longer the “very good” caretaker. Obvious examples are pollution, unnecessary killing of animals, and the destruction of habitat, to name a few.

Through much of this body of work, the authors take pains to note how scientists and OEC are making statements and declaring them as “facts”, while at the same time doing so themselves. This section is probably the most blaring example. There is no evidence provided for the claim, no arguments made, nothing cited or referenced- only emotional appeals which are self labeled as “fact” (This seems to be a mainstay of the YEC case).

Yes, Dr. Ross does make the case that the Noah Flood event was local in geographical scope, but Ross takes great pains to show that a flood of the Mesopotamian plains would still be universal, i.e. it would still impact ALL of humanity as humanity had not yet spread out across the earth. [4]

FOOTNOTES
[1] I would take exception to the quotes from RC Sproul and Hosh McDowell cited in CAT (page 32). By saying that the Bible is "simple to understand", it seems Sproul and McDowell claim the they understand the Bible better Peter- the chief Apostle of the First Church at Jerusalem.
[2] It also strikes me as odd that CAT makes the distinction between the Church and sinful mankind. Is the Church not a part of “sinful mankind”? Is the Church (even the believing constituents) not made up of sinners- yes, justified and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but still with their sin nature very much intact?
[3] A more extensive treatment of this can be found in "Peril in Paradise: Theology, Science, and the Age of the Earth by Dr. Mark S. Whorton
[4] http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/localflood.html (Accessed 7.25.2007) makes some good arguments from Scriptures why the Noahic flood event was local in geographical scope.

Monday, July 23, 2007

Claim: The Universe is Billions of Years Old

"...much of his teachings is this: The universe is billions of years old an astronomy proves it." False. The scriptures contradict such teaching. Also, not all scientific evidences lead to the conclusion that the universe is billions of years old. Nor does the universe's vastness necessarily mean the the universe is of great age.

Fact Check. There is in fact some truth in this statement. Archeology does not lead to a billions of year age. Also, evidences in astronomy/physics of some things in the universe that are young. A supernova in the Large Magellenic Cloud (SN1987A) is evidence of an explosion ~150,000 years ago. However, if we look for evidence of the age of the universe, our star, or our planet in any science that is relevant, we find ample evidence of millions or billions of years of age of those bodies.

If we find an object of only millions of years of age, then is it contradictory to the current estimate of 14.7 billion years of age for our universe? It depends on the finding, but likely not. The ~150,000 year old explosion of the supernova merely places a lower limit on the age of the object, not the upper age. Obviously, the universe must be older than the age of the star. Additionally, the millions of year estimate is no help to a young Earth model as millions is orders of magnitude longer than 10,000 years.

RE: Obviously, no scientist was there billions of years ago nor can anyone go back in a time machine to make critical measurements and tests.

Fact Check. On the surface, this seems like a fairly credible argument. Upon thought, though, this is shown even by YEC scientists to be false. YEC and OEC (as well as secular!) scientists all agree that the speed of light is currently 300,000 km/s. Due to the vastness of space (which the book even agrees is fact), we really only have a time machine! Because light speed is constant, we can only see objects how they were in the past. The Sun, as we see it at this instant, is actually how the Sun was about 8 minutes ago. The light from the supernova mentioned previously is not a true indication of how the star would appear if we could instantly go to that star. On Earth, the explosion shows us how the star appeared ~150,000 years ago! In astronomy, then all we have is a time machine! We cannot determine from Earth observations what any object is like now, only what it was like when the light left its surface.
Additionally, we know that light interacts with matter as it travels through space. Like tree rings, we have a history of what interactions the light experienced on its trip from source to observer. In other words, we don't need a time machine to go back in the past. The time machine comes directly to us, complete with a history of its past!

RE: The Bible indicates that all Creation was completed in six days (evidently six Earth rotations).

Fact Check. To date, I have seen no credible evidence that indicates a young Earth/universe. Let's look at a few of the young Earth classics. I'll not do an exhaustive study of each, just a brief description and short rebuttal of a few select items:

Given the rate at which cosmic dust accumulates, 4.5 billion years would have produced a layer on the moon much deeper than observed. By implication, the earth is also young.

This is an oldie. This one is based upon measurements made on a mountaintop to estimate the rate that dust falls from space to Earth. That value was assumed constant and would be consistent for the Moon. In short, even the experimentor (Pettersson) admitted that results from this would not be accurate as the test was flawed. Results indicated a rate consistent with a layer of dust up to 1 m deep. Subsequent tests were performed and determined a rate of 10 to 100 x smaller than the original estimates. The latter test amounts were consistent with the amount found on the Moon by the 60's lunar missions. The YEC camp, however, continues to hold to the early figures.

The existence of short-period comets means that the universe is less than 10,000 years old. Comets and meteoroids only last from 10,000-15,000 years before they are blown apart by the solar wind.
As Comets approach the Sun, they heat up from solar radiation. As this happens, they sublimate their material that we observe as a coma and tail(s). Therefore, they evaporate with every passage near the Sun. Any given comet, then, would evaporate completely with time. So, the YECs got this partially correct.

What they are neglecting to mention, is that there is a reservoir for comets - the Kuiper belt and the Oort Cloud. Objects in these location are perturbed by other bodies and occasionally brought into the inner solar system.
We have seen first hand how comets are affected by gravity. Comet Shoemaker-Levy smashed into Jupiter. We also see comets changed by interactions with the Sun or Jupiter to change their orbits or change them from short period to long period comets. Thus, as some comets burn out, they are replaced by objects from these locations.
Saturn's rings are unstable which indicates that they are less than millions of years old.

Here again, good science with bad conclusions. Yes, the rings of Saturn, or any other planet, are unstable in the long term. With time, Saturn's rings will completely deplete of material. The scientific community has known this for some time.
What the YEC camp doesn't acknowledge is that ring systems are also created new. This can occur when a small, close moon (all of the gas giants have them) approach to close to the parent planet. Gravity, in the form of tidal forces, will rip the small moon apart. These are the same forces that cause high/low tides on Earth. When tides become too great, the moon breaks apart and forms a new ring system. So, rings are a transient, yet renewable source.
And many others.... Apparently, the YEC scientists don't want to be confused by the facts.
RE: New scientific theories exist which explain the size of the universe in agreement with the biblical timescale. One example...relativistic cosmology formulated by physicist Dr. Russell Humphrey's based on Einstein's general theory of relativity.
Fact Check. Russell Humphrey's model is filled with technospeak that sounds great and will be virtually incomprehensible by anyone that does not have at least some physics background. That means that most people who read it will buy what he has to say. His theory is based on solid science. However, he fails in the tests of the very theory he is using! The general theory of relativity (GTR) does in fact indicate that clocks run at different rates for objects subjected to strong gravitational fields. He believes we are at the center of a gravitational field and that we experience a different rate for the passage of time than the rest of the universe. This is easily testable.
According to his theory and applying GTR, they further away from the gravitational field that we are in, the smaller the affects of time dilation (the name for the different passages of time under that affects of gravity). Do we have any way of measuring clocks to verify his theory? Absolutely.
A special class of variable star, a Cepheid variable, has a variability in its brightness based upon its mass. The more massive (and more bright) the star, the slower the brightness variation. These variations are so consistent that they are called a "standard candle" and are used to validate distance measurements.
According to Humphrey's model, we should be able to observe Cepheid variables brightness variations at different distances from Earth (i.e., the gravity well), and notice a change in period. The farther the star from Earth, the farther the star is from the affects of GTR which will affect its brightness variation period. What do we observe? No change at all in the periods of Cepheid variables regardless of their distances from the Earth/gravity well.
Humphrey's model is falsified at the most fundamental level.

Sunday, July 22, 2007

CLAIM: The facts of nature are like a 67th book of the Bible (Part 1 of 3)

It is true that Dr. Hugh Ross does liken the record of nature as a 67th book of the Bible. And while Dr. Ross can be address this himself, I believe what he means by that statement is that while the Bible reliably records the character of God, the record of nature also reliably records certain attributes of God too. But CAT does have some against this and we will try and address each.

RE: NO AUDIBLE VOICE
Psalm 19:3 confirms that general revelation, “the revelation of God’s glory through the heavens is… wordless and inaudible.” In Psalm 19, King David praises God for his general (nature) and special revelation (the written word). CAT charges that the record of nature is “inaudible”. And CAT is right in that general revelation “Nature, without revealing specific truths about God, is a constant reminder to the glory of the Creator… and add little to one’s knowledge of God or the world” (CAT-pg 30). Only, through the Bible can one learn to have a relationship with Him.

But… like the Law, general revelation has the power to point to God and to condemn- but not to save. One of the purposes of the Law was to point out sin, in that sense it had the power to condemn (James 2:10), so does general revelation (Romans 1:20-21). Another reason for the Law was point to Christ (Gal. 3:23-25), so does general revelation (Psalm 19:1-6). And like the Law, general revelation does no have the power to save.

So on these matters, I would say this OEC is in agreement with my YEC brethren of CAT. While nature is not a literal 67th book of the Bible. It has more “revelation power” and relevance than the authors of CAT might be willing to give. In fact they go so far as to make a flippant comment: “nature has no speech or voice [and this] limits its ability to be specific. This is particularly true when it comes to the ancient past or distant future. Fossils and rocks don’t come with date labels and photographs of the living animals attached. Unlike the Bible, the ‘message’ of the ‘book’ of nature is not written or spoken” (CAT pg 31) but did not Messiah say that even if His followers were silenced by the opposition “the stones will cry out” (Luke 19:40) to proclaim Him?.


RE: SUBJECT TO HUMAN INTERPRETATION (CAT pgs 31-32)
The authors of CAT (as most OEC) are willing to admit that nature a reliable, voluminous presentation of God’s revelation, but it is subject to human interpretation. Meanwhile they correctly claim that the Bible is accurate and reliable. All these statements are true. But what they seem to fail to notice is that BOTH the (raw) record of nature and the (original) Words of the Bible are accurate and true. But because of sin nature, most YEC say that man, particularly unsaved, are incapable of clearly and reliably evaluating it. There is some truth in this but it works in the case of the Bible too.

The Bible and nature are both reliable revelations of God. Both are absolute truth of the same Author. Meanwhile, man is indeed sinful and fallible. In this state, people are incapable of directly “seeing” both the truths. We must look at the through special “lenses”. In the case of nature, that lens is called “science” and in the case of God’s written word, that lens is called “theology”. While nature is True, it is possible for the lenses of science to distort that truth leaving our conclusions “out of focus”. Sometimes we are the source of the distortion because of our worldview. Likewise, the written word of God is also True, but it is possible for the lens of theology to distort that truth leaving our conclusions also “out of focus”. While the authors of CAT admit this to danger (CAT pg 32), they (as most Christians) fail to realise how easily we are hinder in the case of the Bible. For example, even looking at your, most likely of you are in the USA, English based translation you are looking through the distorted lens of “translation” [1]. Even if one is able to read the original Greek or Hebrew, worldview can also corrupt our view of the Bible. The lens of western cultural mindset prevents many Christians today, particularly evangelicals in the US, are hindered by a lack of understanding of first century, Jewish mindset in the areas of word pictures, word usage, and customs [2]. Just as scientific pronouncements have been wrong in the past about the record of nature, so have theological pronouncements been wrong about the truths of the Bible. Great care on observation, examination, and testing must be taken by all peoples when examining either truths. “Simple” readings of both truths should be subject to rigorous testing, least we are led astray [3].


RE: WRITTEN WORDS (CAT pg. 32)
CAT states:

“The written revelation of God is communicated by means of words, Verbal communication is subject to the rules of grammar. Context, and culture and is therefore open to objective hermeneutic study. Nature, on the other hand, is the revelation of God in general fashion and is subjective in nature... The words of the Bible do not change, while man’s environment (nature)
and understanding continually change...”

What the authors say about nature and our ability to interpret that truth accurately is correct, but they fail to appreciate that the same pitfalls are there when even reading simple verses in the Bible. True, as they put it, “words of the Bible do not change”, but our understanding, usage, meaning, and word pictures have changed. Jesus used many Jewish idioms and saying that we in the western culture fail to grasp. Jesus came as a first century Jew, not a western, American evangelical.

Let us consider one example quickly. In Matthew 6:19-24, Jesus speaks on relationship people are to have concerning material things. He mentions a “good eye” and “bad eye”. Here Jesus quotes a common Jewish proverb. In this proverb having a “good eye” is an idiom (‘ayin tovah) for “being generous” and “bad eye” (‘ayin ra’ah) is an idiom for “being stingy”. This is found in the rabbinic saying-”if a person gives a gift, let him give it with a good eye.” In the first century, Rabbi Hillel taught that an individual who gave one-fourth of his income had a “good eye”, but a person who gave only one-sixtieth of his income had a “bad eye”. This is the correct interpretation because Jesus is a Jew speaking to Jews as Jews. Context confirms this interpretation. Greed and anxiety over material things are the subject of surrounding verses.

Let us look at this the other way around. If you were to say, “don’t throw the baby out with the bath water”, even with the best, accurate translations, what word picture do you think a first century Jew might have in his mind? Especially if he insisted on taking you literally.

FOOTNOTES
[1] Even the authors of CAT demonstrated this on pg 30 looking at the different translations of Psalm 19:1-6 in NIV, KJV, and NKJV verses other translations.
[2] I have seen this many times with Bible scholars who are well versed in Greek or Hebrew but still fail to realise the word picture and meaning because they do not understand first century Jewish mindset and culture.
[3] The Bible itself commands that we test all teachings as seen in 1 Thes. 5:21.

The “Facts of Nature” Versus Scripture Part 3 of 3

RE: "Hugh Ross Comments"
The authors of CAT make further comments/charges against Dr. Hugh Ross that requires some address. And while Dr. Ross himself is best qualified to address these, that won’t stop us from weighing in with our two-cents too. CAT suggests that it is Dr. Ross’ acceptance of the peer-reviewed and tested conclusion of astronomy (what CAT calls a “belief”) of a billions-of-years-old universe is the central truth that guides most of Dr. Ross’s studies and beliefs. I don’t think I or the authors of CAT are qualified to say that this is the central of Dr. Ross’ beliefs, but I think was can agree that it is central to his message and ministry. What’s wrong with that? Every ministry has a “schtik”, a focus group, and/or “angle”. This is especially true of an apologetics ministry. Some use philosophy as the main source of their arguments, others archeology. RTB uses cosmology. Why would anyone expect anything else since Dr. Ross’ doctorate is in Astronomy? Any apologetics ministry must be based on the Bible, but since it is generally reaching out to those who doe not believe there is even a God, much less the Bible is His Word, such ministries do not have the luxury of starting their message and arguments from the Bible. That would definitely fall on deaf ears.

The authors of CAT proceed to cite Dr. Ross from an RTB audio tape, “Creation Days” as some sort of self incriminating evidence to make their case.

CAT cites Ross as saying: “Why do I take the view that these days of Genesis are long periods of time? Let me again share a little bit about my naive experiences as a young man. You know, I felt that the best arguments for a seventeen or eighteen-billion-year-old universe would come from astronomy. I was trained in astronomy and realize that you’ve got overwhelming evidences in those sciences for that kind of creation date. In fact, that was part of my message, that the evidence in astronomy is so powerful that God created, and created at a definite point in the past, that I use that as a tool for demonstrating that biblical creation was right on target. Part and parcel of that is the billions of years.” [1]

Many, including the authors of CAT, take exception Dr. Ross using peer-reviewed, scientifically tested conclusions to help in his interpretation of the Bible. What is wrong with that? Many theologians use archaeological discoveries to help settle interpretation crossroads. Prophecy writers use historical evidence to refine their interpretations. I use my knowledge of first century Jewish mindset and customs to help interpret Scriptures (after all, what was Jesus during the incarnation? Who was he speaking to? First century Jews). And RTB, uses the facts of nature to help resolve interpretation crossroads in the creation accounts of scriptures. For example, which literal definition of "yom" ("days") is the correct interpretation of its use in Genesis 1 and 2? What is 6 24-hour periods? Was it 6 periods of day-light? Or was it 6 periods of some unspecified amount of time? [2]

CAT cites Ross as saying: “And I was naive to think, ‘Well, of course the Bible addresses this issue, but the scientific data is so much more specific, and is really beyond any real question that that’s the way to go.’” [1]

Again, many, including the authors of CAT, take exception to this statement. But the fact is, the scientific evidence is more “specific”. The Bible says only so much about nature. The Bible alone is not sufficient to understand all of creation. It does not mention cells, DNA, galaxies, etc. But then again that was not the point of the Bible. Indeed, the enterprise of science is more “specific” in its data because its pursuit is specific to the examination of the record of nature while the Bible is specific about the Glory of God. But there is some overlap in the these two studies. And if God is the author of the Bible, where the two overlap, there must be harmony. I would suggest it is this notion must be central to any science apologetics ministry be it OEC or YEC.

CAT cites Ross as saying: “And so I would try to talk to audiences of Christians and giving the most powerful evidence, namely, the scientific evidence. But what I’ve discovered is that when you’re dealing with... [Christians], they’re already, you know, so wrapped up in this single- revelational theology’, that this scientific evidence that you’re sharing with them is like water off the back of a duck—it doesn’t penetrate. So I’ve taken a different approach. In going into churches, or addressing audiences of Christians, I begin with the biblical evidence. It’s not as definitive, it’s not as strong, but it’s definitive enough, and it’s strong enough... Because they consider themselves to be fundamentalists, they’re almost obligated to listen to my appeal from Scripture. I’m not talking to you as a scientist. I’m talking to you as a student of the Bible. This is what my study of the Bible has demonstrated. I’ve found that I can get a whole lot further with that approach than with a straight scientific message.” [1]

Is this approach that much different than Paul’s. Did Paul not imply that he did something similar when he wrote,

”To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I
became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to
win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not
having the law (though I am not free from God's law but am under Christ's law),
so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the
weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might
save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its
blessings.” (1 Cor. 9:20-23)

Why does Dr. Ross "change" his message for Christian audiences? Dr. Ross would be the best to answer that one, allow me to suggest some possible reasons. First, in such messages there are Christians AND non-Christians audiences. When he speaks at churches, it is an outreach. He must also speak to those in unbelief to show then that there are "reasons to believe". Second, during these outreaches he is also training believers to a different way to reach unbelievers and skeptics. After all, how else are we to reach unbelievers and skeptic? Starting with "Romans Roads" rarely yields the desired results when dealing with those who do not even believe there is a God much less the Bible is His Word. No, one is better off to first argue from outside the Bible. Provide evidence that can authenticate some of its claims (fulfilled prophecies is one place that does not require a science background). Then their minds, wills, and souls may open to the gospel. Is that not the point of apologetics? Sure apologetics loosely means "in defense of the Bible". But I like to think of it as a good "offensive weapon" too. After all, Paul used a similar approach at Athens in Acts 17.

FOOTNOTES:
[1] As CAT cites Hugh Ross “Creation Days”, audio tape RTB, 1990) on pages 27-28.
[2] For a deeper treatment of interpreting "yom" consider "The Genesis Debate : Three Views on the Days of Creation" by J. Ligon Duncan III, David W. Hall, Hugh Ross, and Gleason L. Archer; (2000)

Thursday, July 19, 2007

The “Facts of Nature” Versus Scripture Part 2 of 3

RE: Scientists are Human
The authors of CAT claim that people have “a dangerously vaulted view of scientists” [1]. This may have been true in the 1950’s when futurists promised us free energy from nuclear power, a robot in our homes to do our bidding, and a flying car in every garage. (Hey, where is my flying car and jet pack!). Today, people are far more skeptical of science (particularly the field of medicine, a field that CAT considered to more “impressive” [2]).


I would submit that people today are frustrated and confused about differing opinions within the scientific community in many areas. For example, the questions global warming, what causes cancer, and what foods are healthy, to name a few. (Just today, on the BBC Radio News, I heard of a study that backtracked on the idea that vitamin-C would not helpful in preventing or curing the common cold- despite the claims of famed Nobel Prize winning Chemist Linus Pauling [3]). It is in this climate the enterprise of science finds itself today and there is indeed a growing skepticism.

I will go on to say this is a healthy skepticism that could force the enterprise of science to develop better, strong, and more convincing arguments. The YEC camp should note that this works in their favor but mostly against them as they continually produce unconvincing evidence for YEC (more on this will probably come later in this blog). It is interesting that YEC can make a claim about people buying anything evolutionary (naturalistic) science has to offer on the subject of origins while on other occasions tout surveys where people are increasingly open to the Intelligent Design movement.

CAT goes on to make the statement that one of “the basic tenets of evolution” is a billions-of-years-old earth. If by “evolution” the authors meant Darwinism/Naturalism, this would be another gross generalization if not incorrect characterization. Simply put, while it might be safe of say that all Darwinists would agree that the earth was formed 4 BYA, that does not mean that everyone who agrees with the date is therefore, ipso-facto a Darwinist. The authors go on to claim that it is this bias towards naturalism that makes them resistant to “consider evidence to the contrary”. YEC evidence is not realistic and almost all of it is bogus or mischaracterization of real, peer-reviewed scientific studies.

The authors do make some legitimate claims about the general scientific biases against non-naturalistic theories and interpretation of the data. This is very true and sometimes it can get out right hostile (the best instance of this today is Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez’s tenure case at Iowa State University [5]). But can bias also re-enforce that YEC models, theories, and explanations do not hack-it and not nearly powerful enough to convince?

CAT goes on to claim that today people have bought “an arrogant view of the extent of human knowledge- and have confined the accomplishments of hard science (testable, replicable) with the potentials of origins science (non-replicable, theory-based).” One cannot get any more basic in theories of origins than the beginning of the universe. The prevailing models of cosmology are Big-Bang Models. It is interesting that they could characterize this as a “non-replicable” theory as it continues to be confirmed and refined experiment after experiment and observation after observation. From Hubble’s initial measurements (circa 1929) to the discovery of the background radiation echo of the Big Bang by Nobel winners Penzias and Wilson (1965), to the COBE satellite (1990’s), and most recently the WMAP (2001). The Big Bang (with its refinements) continues to exhibit “staying power” and repeatable [6].

Lastly, I would like to point out a curious oxymoron. The claim in CAT is that “there is a seemingly infinite amount of knowledge to be learned about the universe. Man has gathered only a tiny fraction of that information” [7]. Yes, we will never know everything or even come close, but how can the authors claim that a created-finite universe (a position held by both OEC and YEC) could have an “infinite amount” of information?


RE: Science Changes
Apart from the neo-personal attacks here on Dr. Ross’ character and faith, the main charge levied here is that since scientific paradigms change with new discoveries, it is foolish for Christians to “hitch their wagons” to OEC; after all, what if the Big Bang creation event were found to be untrue. How would Bible maintain credibility having attached this to Genesis 1.

Seems Christians are concerned about this only in the things they do not understand. We have often said, “There is where Budda is buried. There is where Mohamed is buried. But Christ’s tomb is empty!” [8] In other words, if someone produces the body of Christ, that would be a show-stopper for the Christian faith. Yet, Christendom has weathered the claims of James Cameron and the “Jesus Tomb [9]”. It survives hoaxes such as the James Ossuary and “bits of Noah’s ark found on Ararat” [10]. It has even survived bogus and poor scientific claims by YEC [11]. In the light of all this I find it had to believe that the authors of CAT could admonish Christians not accept OEC and “step on such a slippery slope and risk making a mockery of the Bible.

May I suggest (and I would only use this reasoning for my fellow believers) that our faith claims that Christianity and the Bible are not just true, but they are God’s truth. And as such, they will survive any storm, including bad science, bad exegesis, and out right lies that Christians may purport to “help”. Also, consider that even though science had its “revolutions”, so has Christianity- the Reformation is a perfect example. The Reformation was a no-loads shake up to the Christendom. It that was not even prompted by any new revelations or discoveries.

The Bible has weathered “egg on Christendom’s face” in the past when it came to biblical interpretation vs. scientific observation. The most notable, famous instances of this are the cases of Galileo and Copernicus. The Bible endures and will continue to endure, I would suggest, because it is the foundation of God’s Master Plan for history of the believers, Israel, the earth, the universe, and the spiritual realm.

As to the general hesitance that Christians may have in resorting to “the slippery slope” of “extra-biblical” evidence to drive our interpretations of His Divine Word; may I suggest we are already there. But it is not a slippery slope, it is just good scholarship. Do we not already use archeology to help clarify or influence biblical interpretation? Do we not build our apologetics on discoveries in that field of science?


FOOTNOTES:
[1] CAT pg 26.
[2] ibid.
[3] http://news.independent.co.uk/health/article2779434.ece accessed 7.20.2007
[4] For many articles to back this claim see http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/education.asp under “What do the polls reveal?” accessed 7.20.2007
[5] http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=4128 accessed 7.20.2007
[6] http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html and http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/m_uni.html , both accessed 7.20.2007
[7] CAT pg 27.
[8] BTW, do we know where these guys are buried for sure?
[9] For more on this claim see http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bones_of_jesus.html (accessed 7.15.2007)
[10] http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ark-hoax.html (accessed 7.15.2007)
[11] For a list of these see the YEC site for Answer in Genesis at http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp (accessed 7.15.2007)