GENESIS IS FOUNDATIONAL

In the importance of Genesis to the body of books that make up the Christian Bible CAT claims: "More Bible writers quoted (or referred to) Genesis than any other book… Christianity was build upon its foundation." [1]

The claim that Genesis being most quoted is made in CAT with no basis or data to back it up (this feels like a shell-game). But assuming they are right, it is the passages from Genesis 12 and beyond that are more quoted than the pertinent chapters to the issue of the age of the earth (which most would agree are limited to Chapters 1-3 and 9).

The original title of the Book of Genesis, in the Hebrew, is “B’eresheet” which means “beginnings”. Indeed it is a book of beginnings. To name a few, the Book of Genesis documents the beginnings of:

1. the universe and earth (Gen. 1)
2. humanity (Gen. 1 and 2)
3. sin (Gen. 2 and 3)
4. spread of humanity and nations (Gen. 11).

But most importantly (with respect to volume and verse count) Genesis documents the beginning of the Jewish race (Gen. 12-50). A people God chose to set apart and as a testimony to the world [2]. I contend that this is the section of Genesis that is foundational to Christianity since it is the source of the Abrahamic Covenant [3]. It was this covenant that promised blessing to Gentiles from a coming Messiah and forms the basis for the New Covenant is promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34 which the Church resides under.

If it sounds like I am off topic it might be because the original claim of CAT has little to nothing to do with the issue of the age of the earth.

FOOTNOTES:
[1] CAT pg. 22
[2] Deu. 7:6-8
[3] Being sensitive to the original, Jewish perspective of both the Old and New Testament- see my bio on this blog.

Original Paradise (Part II)

Or did the perfect, all-knowing, all-powerful God of love create an imperfect Creation? The Bible certainly suggests that God's creations were fully developed, fully equipped, fully functional, free from disease or suffering. (CAT-17)
It can be concluded that God created man as a grown man - and Eve was formed from a biopsy from Adam's side and was created fully formed as an adult woman. It's probably safe to also assume that when God introduced a new creature that he created the "chicken and not the egg." However to extrapolate to all of creation and to suppose that all trees, plants, earth formations, solar system, etc. were all formed fully developed and equipped is to read something into the text. Free from disease or suffering? Where does the Bible say this? This is reading into the text an interpretation based on a base assumption. It is not gleaning an interpretation from the text.

God judged it all as "very good" (Genesis 1:31) Yes we agree - but note it God did not call it perfect. Perfection is yet to come in the new creation at the end of the age.

In contrast, PC claims that God created a world filled with frequent death, physical and emotional suffering, cruelties, extinctions, catastrophes, and so on, for millions of years.
Animal suffering and death as we will see in an upcoming post is not the same as human death. The death of insects and bacterial life can be distinguished from higher forms of life and especially human life. Cruelty? No, animals are not cruel - that is a product of sin - to arbitrarily cause pain without purpose. Extinctions? Catastrophes? The point is none of these diminish the glory of God in his creation. These things do not malign a perfect creation. (Note animal suffering and death will be covered in depth in an upcoming blog.)

According to PC, when wolves eat lambs and when bears kill baby sea lions, this is exactly the way things were meant to be by God. EXACTLY - and when the bear kills for food - it brings glory to God in that the bear is acting according to its nature. This is simply an appeal to emotion and is only trying to "poison the well"

Is this what we should be teaching our children? Truth is truth. If this is truth, then we should teach it.

If so, why has God never revealed this? God reveals himself in His word and in nature. We can use both of these revelations to arrive at our conclusions (this is left for chapter two - Dual Revelation)

And why does God refer to a blessed time in the future when the wolf will lie down with the lamb? The PC answer is that this will be a unique event never seen before. The end of carnivorous activity is a future perfection. That is a perfect creation - we will not have Eden restored, but will be upgraded to Heaven on earth.

Genesis provides a brief but tantalizing description of the wondrous paradise our Creator lovingly designed. Yes it was wondrous, but it was not perfect like heaven will be.

It was far unlike the pain-filled, sin-worn world of degeneration that we experience.
ABSOLUTELY - Before Adam sinned, things were different. While we say that animal death was experienced before the fall, it does not follow that PC believes that there was no impact of Adam's sin on creation. We can only look at the world through dim glasses - through the experience of sin. We look forward to a new heaven and new earth.

There is no biblical reason to believe that the pre-Fall world suffered catastrophes, diseases, parasites, plagues, degenerative mutations, damage of skin and eyes due to the sun's ultraviolet radiation, animals preying on man or animals, etc. Earth began as a paradise, not a world of travail. There is likewise no biblical reason to believe that everything was perfect as heaven will be. This is only (yet again) emotionally charged language trying to poison the well of our thinking so that we wont even think about the possibility of the contrary. We affirm that creation was perfect for the plan God intended, but we do not force our human based judgement of what we think good and very good means in interpreting Genesis.

Original Paradise

Or did the perfect, all-knowing, all-powerful God of love create an imperfect Creation? CAT continues to assert that a reason why the age of the earth is not a trivial point is by looking at the original creation (paradise).

We respond and affirm that God created an absolutely perfect world. But the problem and point of disagreement is the basis for that perfection. What standard are we going to use to judge this perfection? This problem has been covered in full in a book by Mark Whorton, Ph.D. in his work Peril in Paradise. There is a review of this book from the Seattle RTB Chapter in their Feb 2007 newsletter. [1] In this book there are two views presented: the "perfect paradise paradigm" and the "perfect plan paradigm." Reviewer Mike Brown writes:

According to the "perfect paradise paradigm," when God declared His creation "very good," He meant it was perfect in every way. Thus, Eden was the embodiment of the Creator's ideal intent for His creation. But, man's sin thwarted God's plan and ruined His perfect creation. So, God introduced the physical death of man and animals as a punishment for sin and He instituted the plan of redemption to reverse the effect of Adam's sin and restore all things back to their original intent.

According to the "perfect plan paradigm," God's creation was part of His perfect plan. It was good, but it was never meant to be perfect and Eden was not heaven. Thus, man's sin brought about human death but it didn't thwart God's plan, a plan that can't be thwarted. So, the creation and the Fall were part of God's perfect plan to bring people to Christ and God created the world with the ultimate purpose of demonstrating His glory at the end of history rather than the beginning. [1]

Having not read the original work, I don't know if I would modify the original writing or modify this review, but I would make one distinction in what we just read. I believe God created the world with the ultimate purpose of demonstrating His glory at the beginning, throughout history, and at the end. Dr. Ross likes to call this the "conquest of evil". I prefer to simply call it God's sovereign plan - working out through time.

Greg Moore has written on this by saying:

Some Christians point to Genesis 1:31 -- "God saw all that He had made, and it was very good." They argue God would not call a creation that included animal death "very good." However, we must be careful not to put too much weight on our ideas of what "good" means. The Bible does not tell us the creation was perfect. The Hebrew word for good, "towb", connotes a practical or economic benefit.[3] Thus, the creation was "very good" for achieving God's goals for mankind... Animal death in no way conflicts with that goal. [2]

So the real question as it pertains to the original creation is how do we judge its perfection? Do we rate it based on an emotionally charged humanistic expectation of justice or what we feel is the standard for perfection? Or should we let God define His own purpose and His own standard in why and how and when He created? I hope the answer is obvious to everyone.

When we get to heaven, we will not have the capacity to sin. However, Adam and Eve were given a free will to choose evil. In this one example we see a less than a perfect paradise. Yet to say that the creation was not perfect is to malign God's intention and power - so we reaffirm that the creation was absolutely perfect. That is perfect for the task God intended.

In the next installment, we will respond to specific quote from CAT on this issue of the original paradise. May God continue to bless the study of His word.

Notes:
[1] http://www.reasons.org/chapters/seattle/newsletters/200702/200702.pdf (accessed 06/29/2007)

[2] Does Old-Earth Creationism Contradict Genesis 1? by Greg Moore.
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/other_papers/greg_moore_does_old_earth_creationism_contradict_genesis_1.shtml (accessed 06/19/2007)

[3] Ibid - referring to Laird Harris, Gleason L. Archer, Bruce Waltke, Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (Chicago, Moody, 1980), 345.

WHY WOULD AN ALL POWERFUL GOD NEED BILLIONS OF YEARS TO CREATE THE WORLD?

Here CAT page 22 item 8 resorts to emotional, “logical” arguments to state their case. In this entry I will try to quickly address each question raised:

“If Christ is all of these things [All- POWERFUL, ALL-KNOWING, ABSOLUTE PERFECTION], He is certainly capable of creating the world in one blinding instant.

This is a very weak and emotion based argument. True, He is indeed capable of creating the universe in an instant. I dare say, in the light of His power and transcendence, that really six-days are just as much “over-kill” and unnecessary as 13 billion years. Yes- God could have done it all in six-days, six-hours, six-minutes, six-nanoseconds. But that is not the point. One can fill all the volumes of all the books in history with what and how God “COULD” have done things. The point is, “How DID God do it?” And the record of nature shows that He did take billions of years and not billionths of a second to create this universe as concluded independently in every major discipline of science. Meanwhile, OEC makes the strong case that the Bible supports this time-frame. [1]

Why would such a Creator use a slow process rife with dead ends (repeated animal extinctions) and new starts?
Excusing the pun, but these “dead ends” are not what they seem to the casual observer. Again, while maybe God COULD have done it differently, the reliable record of nature (Romans 1:20) shows that God pretty much did it as is observed by the main-stream study of His creation with respect to time scales and order of appearance.

One reason for billions of years of past life before the advent of humans was to prepare the earth for human civilization. The lives and deaths of plants, animals (even bacteria)- buried and subjected to high temperatures, pressures, and the actions of plate tectonics- has left the earth with an immense supply of biodeposits. Most people are aware of petroleum products- oil, natural gas, and coal. These God created resources power modern civilization and make our lives good. The Bible even mentions the benefit of these before the flood (contradicting the YEC assertion that oil deposits are the result of the flood) [2]. Also, past living organisms are responsible for the vast stores of limestone and marble (formed from the shells of countless mollusks, corals, etc.). From past bacteria comes many of the concentrated metal ores found in the earth. Without all these biodeposits, modern civilization would not be possible. In fact, RTB contends that modern communication methods and transportation (which depend upon these biodeposits) fit well into God plan to fulfill the Great Commission globally today. This alone is a great reason why God spent so much time (our time, not His) preparing the earth for human arrival.

Another reason God reason for God taking so long in creating the universe, is hinted at the in Scriptures (examples Isaiah 65:16-18 and Proverbs 8:27-31). God enjoyed creating, and most would agree- when something is enjoyed and a delight it is savored.

Last, Psalm 104:29-30 hints that God did use creation-extinction in the process in creating, “When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust. When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth.”[3].

“Why stretch the process over the lifetimes of millions of generations of animals- all this before getting to the point, the creation of man?”

Reading all the Bible has to say about God’s career as Creator one gets a different conclusion. We are not the “point” of the creation. The point of the creation is for His glory. Many OEC would argue that Revelation 21 and 22 are the end-point of God’s creation, when God fully reveals His glory and majesty, and not the advent of humanity.

“The Creator doesn’t need time; He doesn’t need to experiment. PC stains God’s true glory, majesty, and power- the very characteristics that define [H]im.”
Again, the question is not, “did God NEED the time?” The real question is “Did God TAKE the time?” The earth as He created it can only support so much biodiversity at a given time. I would contend that God really showed His glory, majesty, and power by taking billions of years. Using different eras and eon of creation and preserving these to point to His past miracles; displays the diversity and depth of His creative “imagination” from the past to the present.

In summary, according to the best examinations of the record of nature, God exquisitely fine-tuned the characteristics of the Earth for 4 billion years before the advent of humanity. This resulted in the maximum diversity of life, which translates into a rich abundance of natural resources (biodeposits) for humanity. COULD God have done it differently? Sure, He could have done most anything, including NOT create us. But that is not the question. The question is “DID He do it differently?”

FOOTNOTES:
[1] This will be shown in others postings but one can also go to: http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth/longdays.html (accessed 6.30.2007)
[2] This is indicated by the existence of pitch (a petroleum product) existing before the flood in Genesis 6:14
[3] The key to seeing this is the Hebrew word used for “created” is “bara”. This has meaning of creating something brand-new, never seen before.

How Can Suffering Be In God's Good Plan?

RE: CHRIST-SADISTIC OR TOTALLY GOOD AND LOVING?

If Christ the Creator… used millions of years of suffering and to make the animals, how can He be all-loving and all-good? Under the [PC] scenario, Christ designed the animals to devour each other, ripping with claws and teeth. He then further allowed these creatures (with no connection whatsoever to man or sin) to die by the trillions for millions of years due to every catastrophe conceivable. God allowed (or possibly even sent) a multitude of afflictions down on these animals, including diseases of all sorts, plagues, volcanoes, earthquakes, ardments from outer space, floods, etc. As a result, animals of many types were killed to extinction. [1]

YEC outright reject the very idea that suffering was part of God’s "very good” creation. For YEC the only reason for suffering is because of the sin of Adam and Eve. Put another way- surely He could make a better creation than this, something must have happened.

We must make room for a transcendence of God and allow for mystery in His ways. The Bible clearly teaches that not all suffering is pointless. There is indeed intent, purpose and design for why God permits suffering apart from the sin of man. Consider three examples from scriptures:

1. His servant Job
2. The man born blind in John 9
3. The tower of Siloam.

Job's suffering was for a greater good and God’s glory. In the case of John 9, Jesus’ disciples were certain sin brought about the man’s sightless condition, but Jesus corrected them, “It was neither that this man sinned, or his parents; but it was so that the works of God might be displayed to him” [2]. In our third example, Jesus says that of 18 people when the tower of Siloam fell was not because of their sin (Luke 13:1-5) [3]. Jesus made it clear. Scriptures teach that the purpose of this creation is “that the works of God might be displayed” (Psalm 19). The apostle Peter goes on to teach that Christians sometimes suffer, not for sin, but according to the will of God that He might be glorified (1 Peter 4:12-16,19).

The Bible teaches that any understanding of suffering is to be based on an eternal perspective. Our sufferings are light and momentary when compared to the eternal weight of His glory. If it is in God’s plan for His faithful to suffer for His glory, how can it be out of the question for “lower animals” to suffer, as Tennyson put it- “red in tooth and claw.” Especially, in the light that humanity is the greatest of God’s creation (consider Matthew 10:29). The Psalmist had no problems seeing the glory of God in this when he wrote:

“The lions roar for their prey and seek their food from God… How many are your works, O LORD! … In wisdom you made them all; the earth is full of your creatures… These all look to you to give them their food at the proper time. When you give it to them, they gather it up; when you open your hand, they are satisfied with good things. When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust. When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth. May the glory of the LORD endure forever; may the LORD rejoice in his works-- he who looks at the earth, and it trembles, who touches the mountains, and they smoke. I will sing to the LORD all my life; I will sing praise to my God as long as I live. May my meditation be pleasing to him, as I rejoice in the LORD.” [4]

Footnotes:
[1] CAT pg 21
[2] John 9:2-3
[3] The same might be said of two other towers that fell 2000 years later- WTC. How that will play out remains to be seen. Again, we must make room for a transcendence of God and allow for mystery in His ways.
[4] Psalm 104:21,24, 27-34

RE: PHYSICAL DEATH CAME THROUGH SIN (Genesis 3:19):

“ALL PEOPLE die because Adam’s original sin. Progressive Creationism denies this, saying that animals died for millions of years before Adam and implying that Adam too was doomed to physically die, regardless of sin.” [Emphasis mine] (CAT-16)

I disagree, the position of most OEC (and PC) is that all people die (physically and spiritually) because of Adam’s original sin. So, there is total agreement with the first sentence cited above, between the views of OEC and YEC. Human death- physical and spiritual- are a direct result of Adam’s original sin. There is no disagreement as CAT would have us believe. Where the two views depart is in the area of animal death. The writing of CAT in the first sentence cited above speaks plainly about human death but then the thought suddenly switches. This illustrates the problem. For the authors of CAT and many YEC- human death is just as tragic as animal death. Put another way, if human death came about by sin, then so did animal death. In general, there seems to be a great tendency to anthromorphy animals in this way. OEC recognizes that the physical death of animal and plants (creation without spirit) is not the same as the physical death of humans (creation with spirit).

RE: Adam's Potential Lifespan
Many OEC would go on to say that humanity was not doomed to die before the fall of Adam and Eve (pre-destination/free-will aside- that is a whole other matter). The possibility of death was indeed there, but this fate was to be avoided by the access to the tree of life. Hence, when the fate of mortality was introduced to humanity, God bared access to the sustaining tree of life.

RE: Paul's Understanding
On page 16-17 CAT states that in Romans 5:12,14-15 Paul clearly teaches that all death was brought about by the Fall in the Garden of Eden. But Hugh Ross’ organization, Reasons to Believe, addresses this claim on their website:

A careful examination of Romans 5:12 shows that Adam's sin introduced death to all humans, not to all life forms on earth. Plant and animal death in no way attributes evil or cruelty to the Creator. Furthermore, a biblical and scientific case can be made that the laws of physics as known today have been in operation since the creation of the universe[1].

The standard YEC interpretation is that sin subjected all living things to physical death and the introduced of carnivorous activity to nature. But Paul says that sin brought about the death of humans (Genesis 2:17 and Romans 5:12). The Bible provides no basis for the notion that sin brought about death of animals. The YEC contention that carnivorous activity began after the fall is also without a biblical foundation. Such ideas are in direct contradiction to scripture. Such a drastic change in animal behavior would require God to continue or resume the creation process - something Scriptures indicate He stopped doing after the 6th day (Genesis 2:3 and Hebrews 4:4). But if this were the case, then God must have changed some of the animals to become carnivorous. That begs the question “why would God judge the innocent animals for the sin of mankind and condemn them to the ‘evil’ laws of survival of the fittest?”

Footnotes:

[1] http://www.reasons.org/about/8_myths_about_rtb.shtml, accessed 6.24.2007

To Learn more: http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/other_papers/animal_death_before_the_fall.shtml, accessed 6.26.2007
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/other_papers/creature_mortality.shtml , accessed 6.26.2007

"A Matter of Days"; Ross Hugh; Nvapress; 2004.

Bio for ToddL

Name: Todd

How Many Years a Christian: Since age 4 - 1971

Educational Background: BS – Computer Engineering Texas A&M University.

Church Affiliation: Worship Leader for The Light of Denton - Denton TX.

Day Occupation: Computer Engineer - Cisco Systems IP Phone Division.

Favorite authors:

• James White,
• Steven R. Donaldson,
• JRR Tolkien,
• Hugh Ross,
• R.C. Sproul,
• A.W. Pink

Favorite Podcast(s):

• The Narrow Mind (unchainedradio.com) with Pastor Gene Cook
• The Dividing Line (aomin.org) with Dr. James White
• CARM (carm.org) with Matt Slick
• Radio Worldview (worldviews.org) with Jeff Baldwin and Bill Jack
• Way of the Master (wayofthemaster.com) with Todd Friel, Kirk Cameron, Ray Comfort.

Hobbies & Interests: Woodworking, Music, Worship, Movie night with the kids.

Christian testimony and background: I was saved in Sunday School at age 4 at Trinity Church, San Antonio. I grew up in an independent interdenominational Assemblies-of-God-like church. As any early child convert, I did not understand everything pertaining to faith and Godliness, but since that time I've been growing in the Lord ever since.

I felt a definite leading of the Lord to a future music ministry at a summer camp during middle school. Since then I've been leading worship in various capacities at the churches that I've attended culminating with the worship leading position at The Light Church in Denton. I've played piano since 1972 and I have written and produced two instrumental CDs. My music website is ToddLMusic.Com

I attended Oral Roberts University for one year then switched to Texas A&M to finish my undergraduate work. It was at A&M where I met my sweetheart Debbie. We have 4 kids, 3 boys 13,12,9 and a baby girl 1 year old.

Pertaining to the age of the earth question: I have studied this issue through web and book research since 1991. There are times when its been an upfront main issue of study and times where it has taken a back seat to other issues like the Arminian vs. Calvinism debate.

I am thoroughly committed to the inerrancy of the Bible and the fact that God created absolutely everything in a period of six "days" as Genesis indicates. The question at hand is how long were those days - and if you interpret those days as long periods of time - does this do injustice to the infallibility of the Bible and is it allowed by proper Biblical hermeneutics. That is the question that this blog attempts to address.

Bio of jjgoalie

Name: Don

How Many Years a Christian: Since 1982

Educational Background: BS – Aerospace Engineering, MS – Aerospace Engineering; Doctorial Work in Aerospace Engineering

Church Affiliation: Harvest Church Fort Worth, TX.

Current Occupation: Aerospace Engineer

Favorite author(s): Hugh Ross; Arnold Fruitenbaum

Hobbies & Interests: Developing Bible Studies, Playing Ice Hockey (Goalie), Reading, Films

Christian testimony and background: I grew up in a secular home to an American father who was career USAF and a Japanese mother living in Hawaii, Japan, and Texas. I attended The University of Texas at Arlington. It was in my 2nd year that I was introduced to Christ while dating a Christian. She broke up with me, but Christ did not. After graduating with as a BS in Aerospace Engineering (1985), I began work on my Masters with emphasis in Aircraft Handling Qualities and Control Theory and completed my thesis in 1986. Shortly after, I started work at General Dynamics while also teaching at The University of Texas at Arlington as an Adjunct Professor. Later, I took a leave of absence for doctorial work The University of Texas at Austin. There I met my wife. In 1991, I left academia and resumed my work at GD (now Lockheed Martin) as a Flight Control Systems Engineer working on aircraft programs such as: IDF (Taiwan), F-16, T-50 (South Korea), and the F-35.

Soon after joining our church, I was approached by both God and my Bible Study teacher to be a teacher too. I was called to teach an existing class- Harmony of the Gospels. But, there were two problems.

1. I struggled with science and faith issues.
2. How do I teach a Bible study composed of seminary level material having never been to seminary and with no qualifications other than having taken it myself- I’m just a “rocket scientist”. But God answered both of these problems.

First, I confessed my science and faith issues to a godly man, and fellow PhD candidate I met in Austin. He pointed me to a ministry called “Reasons to Believe” that guided me towards the worship of God with all I have: heart, soul, and mind.

The second problem was handled in a way I had never experienced before. One day, God spoke to me, “Don, I am a Jew. Learn My Word as a Jew. Teach it that way”. Shortly after that, I stumbled upon a TV program while looking for the Reasons to Believe TV show called “Zola Levitt Presents”. I poured time, money, energy, and resources into two avenues- RTB and Zola- studying all I could on apologetics and the Jewish Roots of the Christian faith. Meanwhile, I continued preparing my own class materials. In the end, the existing Bible study class was overhauled, and put back together again but with a “yarmulke” (a Jewish skull cap). Later, people with doctorates from seminaries shared with me how they had no idea why God wanted me to teach this class but when they began to hear of the richness of our Jewish Roots, it changed how they saw, taught, and understanding of the Bible too.

Since then God has used me to develop eight Jewish Roots classes (topics ranging from the gospels from a Jewish perspective, the Jewish Church in Acts, fulfilled prophecies of the Bible and end-times) and two other “Jewish Roots” teachers with big hearts for God and Israel. God has opened doors allowing me to also teach on science and faith issues at my church and other churches introducing others to RTB as well as a Jewish Jesus.

Today, we continue to serve. Me, a Japanese-American with a Jewish bent, my South Texas wife, and now our adopted Chinese daughter continue to grow and serve the Lord. We are quite the “piece of work”. In Yeshua -don

Is the age of the earth trivial

The first chapter of substance deals with what is described as a "key tactic of Progressive Creationism" - that is the claim that the age of the earth is a trivial point." The triviality of the debate is rejected as FALSE with the following declaration.

Although many Christians miss the connection at first glance, this issue is inseparably linked to the Gospel and the inerrancy of Scripture. (CAT-15)

The following points are then given as proof that this is not a trivial point.

1. Physical death came through sin
   
2. Original paradise
   
3. Corruption and decay of paradise began with sin & judgement
   
4. Restoration of paradise
   
5. Purpose of death
   
6. Animal death
   
7. Christ - sadistic or totally good and loving?
   
8. Christ - all powerful all knowing absolute perfection.
   
9. Genesis is foundational
   
10. Trust in God's word
    
11. Health of the church
    
12. Final note - trivial yet RTB is dedicated to it...

My co-bloggers and I will address these items (not necessarily in order due to each of our own schedules and time constraints). We pray that God will continue to bless the study of His word. Amen.

CAT: Introduction - Brief Summary of Dr. Ross's Book

I just love the opening salvo from this section.

Based on its content, Creation and Time could have been titled, "Creation in a Great Deal of Time: Young-Earth Creationist are Wrong and the Bible and Science Prove It." (CAT-12)

That's pretty funny, but in all honesty its true. That is the thesis of the book. However, lets remember the door swings both ways. The VanBebber/Taylor book could have just as well been titled: Creation and Time: Old Earth / Progressive Creationism is Heresy and We Can Prove It.

The chapter then goes on to list some of the basic concepts of Progressive Creationism.

• the earth and universe are billions of years old
• the Genesis days of creation are overlapping periods of millions and billions of years
• death and bloodshed have existed from the beginning...
• Noah's flood was local, not global, although it killed all humans outside the ark

To persuade of these, Creation and Time (Ross) uses the following strategies.

• claim the moral high ground in the controversy
• attempt to show that YEC are misguided fanatics, using bad science, and over blowing the importance of a small issue
• attempt to show that the Bible allows for long Creation days
• attempt to show that historic Christianity is in agreement with non-literal days and an old earth
• attempt to show that YEC is dangerous ... making it nearly impossible for many people to accept the Bible and Christ
• reassure readers that PC is in opposition to evolution and atheism
• attempt to show evidences prove beyond doubt the age of the universe
• attempt to show there is no credible evidence for a young earth
• attempt to show that YEC are out of touch with reality
• attempt to show that the Big Bang is a wonderful breakthrough for Christianity affirming God's existence from the very beginning
• attempt to show that long ages interpretation of Genesis days is the simplest reading
• attempt to show that PC interpretation of days fits beautifully with science discoveries
• attempt to show there was death before the fall and that this doesn't impact Christ's atonement,
  faith, or morality
• attempt to show that PC is an evangelical position...

This blog, and the chapters that follow in CAT discuss these issues in depth, so we wont respond here at this point. The authors of this blog are in general agreement with these points and we will be attempting to prove to you that the Bible supports this interpretation.

Why this book

Question: Why are we reviewing this particular book? Are there not lots of other young earth materials that need a response?

Answer: This is just a starting point. In researching this topic, I only found a cursory review of this book on the web - but nothing that would be a concise point by point rebuttal. Yes this book is old, and it is reviewing a book that is older too. Much research has been done since the writing of both of these books.

Yet we find this book remaining to be recommended and since there does not appear to be a point by point rebuttal, this is why we picked this book. For a general review, we recommend the following article:

http://www.geocities.com/darrickdean/rossrev.html

Yet as time allows, it is the author's hope to review other materials as well. As other blog partners join me, we may perhaps broaden the scope.

CAT: Introduction - Who is Hugh Ross

In the introduction, Hugh Ross is introduced as founder of Reasons to Believe, having a Ph.D. in astronomy, and being a former pastor serving at Sierra Madre Congregational Church. Later it claims that Ross is:

the most visible spokesman for Progressive Creationism, a belief which opposes both atheistic evolutionism and historic Christianity's understanding of biblical creationism. (CAT-10)

We appreciate that the authors agree that progressive creationism rejects atheistic evolution. However let's go a step further to also say that we reject theistic evolution. But what about that last part - opposing historic Christianity's understanding... The implication here is that historic church fathers and early Christians can all be characterized by the distincives of the modern young earth position? I dont think so. We will address this in future entries, but lets continue on with the introduction.

The book then gives a definition of progresive creation from an audiotape message from Dr. Ross called "Dinosaurs and Hominids," 1990. Progressive creation from this definition is "the hypothesis that God has increased the complexity of life on earth by successive creations of new life forms over billions of years while miraculously changing the earth to accomidate the new life. (CAT-10)"

This is not a bad definition, but we can probably do better. We could hypothesize that Dr. Ross in this cassette recording was not trying to cover every angle possible so we'll give him some slack at this point.

Wikipedia has a pretty good definition for Progressive Creationism
Progressive creationism is a form of Old Earth creationism that accepts scientific geological and cosmological estimates for the age of the Earth, but posits that the new "kinds" of plants and animals that have appeared successively over the planet's history represent instances of God directly intervening to create those new types by means outside the realm of science. In contrast, theistic evolution holds that natural, evolutionary mechanisms were guided by God. Progressive creationists generally reject macroevolution as biologically untenable and not supported by the fossil record, and they generally reject the concept of universal descendence from a last universal ancestor.

The GodAndScience web site has a good introductory summary of PC here.

Back to the book under review:

While urging Christians to reject evolutionary theories for the origin of life, he teaches a billions-of-years history beginning with the Big Bang. (CAT-10)

First, we need to note that evolution doesn't (and can not) even attempt to answer the origin of life - it begins with a primitive life and then acts by random chance and natural selection from that point. So this point on rejecting evolutionary theories for the origin of life is spurious even in its formulation. But, there is another problem with this statement. It equivicates evolutionary theories with billions of years and the big bang. Yet, there is no required tie which binds one to the other.

According to Ross and other Progressive Creationists Adam and Eve were created from dust after the majority of earth's history had already taken place, including eons of death among the animals. His timeline includes millions of years of major disasters befalling the animals before Adam, including supernovas, asteroid impacts, etc. As a result, animals frequently became extinct, never to be seen by man. Progressive Creationists claims that God stepped in many times to create replacements or improved models -- sometimes completely abandoning entire groups of animals, changing the previous course of life on earth. Ross also teaches that the flood of Noah was local, not global. (CAT 10-11)

Admitedly these are progressive creationist distinctives. And we will admit that to someone who has only been exposed to the young earth interpretation, some of these ideas may seem instantly foreign to you.

It is the authors hope that if we will dig into the scriptures, that we may find that the Bible allows for a different perspective than what you may have previously learned. The impact is a call for less strident dogmatism and branding of the other camp as heretical or even non-Christian. The fruit will be to concentrate on the fundamentals of the faith instead of a civil war of ideas amongst brothers and sisters in the Lord.

May God continue to bless the study of His Word. Amen

CAT: Introduction - bringing out the guns

This blog is not going to be a plagarized full copy of the subject book - but we will extensively quote enough from it to give a proper context and we will always refer to the page number as (CAT-9) for page 9. Quotes from the book will be in red.

In the Introduction we find the following:

This report examines one of the latest writings of Hugh Ross, Creation and Time: A Biblical and Scientific Perspective on the Creation-Date Controversy (CAT-9)

It should be noted that RTB has been busy in putting out books since this time and a more up to date book on the creation-date controversy has been recently released entitled "A Matter of Days." I am sure that we will see some quotes from this newer book within this blog.

CAT continues:

The purpose of this report is to document a number of important biblical, theological, language, and research errors...Having followed the author's (Ross) career for years, it is evident that significant erroneous claims are generally consistent throughout his writings, lectures, and video presentations. (CAT-9)

We believe that Dr. Ross is saved, and that his expressed desire to live for Christ is genuine. His desire to evangelize is laudable... We also admire his ability to remain relatively cool and self-controlled under pressure. (CAT-9)

Lets say right now - thank you to the authors for admiting that you can be a Christian and believe in an old earth. This is more than some in the young earth camp will admit. I know there is significant debate on the details - but the CAT authors have gone where some YEC authors wont go - to admit that this is not an issue of salvation - this will be a critical point in discussions to come.

From the onset, I'm struck by the somewhat congenial nature of this introductory language. We know there is a controversy coming - a conflict of interpretation. And we can expect the guns to come out shortly - but it is nice to see this type of language at the start. We can only hope that this congeniality continues in the book.

What distresses us is his (Ross) continuing use of various erroneous teachings about the Bible. We believe these teachings are leading people down a wrong and dangerous path -- a trail trod by many in the past that has repeatedly led ultimately to even more serious theological problems and loss of faith in God's Word. (CAT-9)

The guns are rolling out - but in all fairness, this is a legitimate thesis for the book and is exactly what this blog will endevour to critique.

The 2nd section of the book is entitled Who is Hugh Ross - and we will cover this in the next entry.

May God bless the study of His Word. Amen

What is this all about

(picture is StarWr124 - Hubble Telescope)

My name is Todd L. - and I believe that God uniquely created all matter, space, time, humans, plants, animals, minerals, etc (everything) and that he did so over a period of billions of years. I reject theistic evolution. I also believe that God is not some impersonal force, but that He has revealed Himself in the pages of the Bible. The God of creation is not some nebulous intelligent designer - but is in fact the God of the Bible.

To catalog my views - you would say that I'm a progressive creationist. I do not hold up as authoritative any one organization or person to 100% model my views after. I do appreciate reasons.org and Hugh Ross, but I do not approve or agree with absolutely everything he says or believes.

This blog is going to share my thoughts on the subject of origins, age of the earth, and the old vs. young earth controversy. To do so we will start by responding to the specific fact claims that are presented in the book:

Creation And Time - A Report on the Progressive Creationist Book by Hugh Ross.

You can buy this book by following the link. Comments will be allowed on this blog if you have a blogger account. Anonymous comments will not be allowed. Thank you - now lets tackle this subject together.

TODDL